I dont do them. I dont think that a pill is by any means, the cure to success. But i am curious.. is this how women (and men) get extremely lean?? Sometimes it blows my mind. My diet is clean, i work out like a champ.. whats the missing piece? I will say, i just started eating very clean 2 weeks ago- prior to, my diet was always healthy.. but even in the past, with strict diet and exercise, ive never achieved the super lean results that ive aspired for. Do these lean mean machines take fat burners? Seriously, whats the trick? If thats the case, guess im happy where im at! But that doesnt satisfy my curiosity

Tara

It's been known before yes, but I would strongly advise against it.

As an example, imagine yourself as someone who'd lost 40lbs, (for example), and used an FB, you'd need to ask yourself these two questions.

1. How much weight would I have lost without a Fat Burner?

2. How much longer would it have taken to lose the weight without Fat Burner?

I can guarantee, if a single person answered that with a cast iron number or percentage, they'd be fooling themselves.

The only way to know this, would be to put the weight back on, and then do exactly the same things you did before, to shed the 40lbs but don't use Fat burner, so you use yourself as a guinea pig.

Problem is you could get things like mood swings, bloating, unhappiness, sluggishness, additional pain, if the old weight level was a contributory factor in any pain in the person, and nobody would do that to themselves, so they would convince themselves the Fat burner must have done something, because it's easier to do than admit it may have done nothing at all.

Bitter pill to swallow, after taking crap like that, and spending good money on it.

I've heard people saying I got definition, using an FB, then I stopped at my ideal weight, and lost some, what happened?

Diet wasn't good enough almost certainly, but if it had been they wouldn't have needed an FB.

Some competitors, (as stated), have been known to use FB's in the past, but frankly I'd advise against them. Many don't, because it can really play havoc with their dieting phase, and if they can and almost all can, achieve the right level of bf%, for contest requirements without, to use an FB, to try and get such a result, is bad for their prep, as it can stop them learning enough about how to get the fat level required, without an "assist", and by assist I don't mean some kind of hormone, as FB's aren't hormone based, or none that I know of anyway.

Some are herbal based, and some contain things like Ephedra, a derivative of Speed, or Ephedrine, a synthetic version of Ephedra, (hope I got those two the right way round), and some have other things in like Synephrine, and herbs.

In my mind all those things like Fat Burners, Appetite suppressants, Thermogenic serums and Cutting / Ripping Gels are all rubbish, and they are used by manufacturers to play on peoples, (particularly womens), insecurities about body image.

They can potentially cause things like Heart issues sometimes, Jitters, possibly Headaches I would think, possibly vomiting in some cases, I would also think, and they are a waste of money.

The Hypothalamus is a part of the Brain used to assist with digestion, as well as thirst and other functions. Likelihood is I would presume, Fat Burners interact with that area of the Brain, and manipulate it's activities to try and achieve a result.

They also may cause people to sweat more, and create a more Thermogenic effect, as the Hypothalamus, also controls body temperature, between around 96.5F and 100F.

You then have to consider if indeed a Fat Burner or similar products, interact with the Brain in an unnatural way, as opposed to certain things like some Amino Acids, which are Neurotransmitters, but are from natural sources, I.E. food, is it necessarily a good thing?

Considering that Humankind has evolved to use certain things in Nature, like some Amino Acids, (as an example), with Brain interaction, is it necessarily right or healthy to stimulate the Brain with chemical derivatives, or potentially altered Herbal matter?

Either way, I still advise against them, and always will on here, as I don't like the ethos of them, or the corporate image they possess. Supplements are big business, but products like that are some of the biggest sheisters of the supplement world.

Hope that helps to clarify a few things.

As long as you're doing what you think is right, to make your own body look and feel how you like, that's what counts. I'm sure you are, and you should be proud of the effort you no doubt make, to achieve your results, but as for Metabolic stimulants like Fat Burners, you don't need them ever.

Thankyou. I was having a discussion a few days ago with a guy at the gym- he proceeded to point out two women working out that were training for a competition. I than asked, "how do these women get so lean and maintain such a great muscular physique?" Thats when FB's became topic of discussion. Because he is aware of my fitness goals, he suggested i started taking them.. haha. no thanks, i said. However, ever since then it's been lingering on my mind. Is this how they do it?? Dont get me wrong, Im not at all convinced it's 100% natural. But its like revealing the magicians secret to his incredible magic trick- kind of a let down.
So, all in all- i appreciate your response and the insight I received. I am happy with my progress and i will continue to make progress the healthy Besides, Ventricular tachycardia doesn't look all that fun.


Tara

Tachycardia, no thanks. if you constantly livin with a BPM of 100+ there's potentially an underlying issue.

What kind of goals are you looking at?

Ive been training 3 weeks now with a personal trainer. On my initial visit my BF % was 25%- My goal is get to 18% with nice muscular definition. Although my overall goal is good health, I also strive for the physical benefits of fitness As for my other goals- increase endurance; increase metabolism (which has been my biggest struggle). I may have mentioned before- for about 10 years (im 27) Ive been addicted to health/fitness and nutrition. I became ACE certified about 6 years ago, although i never trained- i basically used it to my advantage. I love learning- and even more i love learning from others with true experience. For so long now Ive been tweaking my workouts and modifying my diet- but i still have yet to master it. I feel like now im at a good time in my life where i can dedicate myself 100%- so far so good. But im still learning new things everyday. Which is great, but sometimes frustrating. but i do appreciate all of the great input- this site is excellent!
Oh, and as for the tachycardia. I read once that a girl went into ventricular tachycardia (HR > 160) from using the ephedra based FB. kinda creepy!
Maybe a rumor? But i'll stick to my coffee

Not sure about the 160 BPM, but I don't drink Coffee. I'm pretty sure Caffeine interferes with Iron absorption, and also Vasoconstricts bloodvessels, which isn't good.

Especially as women under 50 are considered needing of around 14-15mg's Iron a day, as they menstruate it, whereas Men and most women over 50, (post-menopausal obviously), need about 7-8mg's upper limit about 40mg's a day from memory, and supposedly Heam, (Animal based Iron), where possible.

So I personally wouldn't drink Coffee anyway, but mainly it's the smell, it can sometimes make me gag.

Iy's good to see you have become certified, and you're really trying to make your life better all round.

I tend to sometimes look at the long-term, and I sometimes wonder how I will feel physically in 40-50 years time, and I hope that I am doing enough to be in a respectable level of health.

I'm certainly not going to jump on a supplement bandwagon, take loads of supplements, start eating loads of Herbs, and herbal drinks etc etc, but I feel I'm doing what is necessary to achieve good quality of old age.

It's good to see you doing it too .

By the by, whilst we're on the competition section, has anyone ever tried to persuade you to get into that? Not that I would say any woman who works out, should do that, but I admire many who do.

Boss wrote:Not sure about the 160 BPM, but I don't drink Coffee. I'm pretty sure Caffeine interferes with Iron absorption, and also Vasoconstricts bloodvessels, which isn't good.

Especially as women under 50 are considered needing of around 14-15mg's Iron a day, as they menstruate it, whereas Men and most women over 50, (post-menopausal obviously), need about 7-8mg's upper limit about 40mg's a day from memory, and supposedly Heam, (Animal based Iron), where possible.

So I personally wouldn't drink Coffee anyway, but mainly it's the smell, it can sometimes make me gag.

Iy's good to see you have become certified, and you're really trying to make your life better all round.

I tend to sometimes look at the long-term, and I sometimes wonder how I will feel physically in 40-50 years time, and I hope that I am doing enough to be in a respectable level of health.

I'm certainly not going to jump on a supplement bandwagon, take loads of supplements, start eating loads of Herbs, and herbal drinks etc etc, but I feel I'm doing what is necessary to achieve good quality of old age.

It's good to see you doing it too .

By the by, whilst we're on the competition section, has anyone ever tried to persuade you to get into that? Not that I would say any woman who works out, should do that, but I admire many who do.

Funny you ask.. I have recently been taken interest in competing- probably figure. I ran it by my trainer at the gym and he had good feed back. But i dont know how or where to begin. The diet is not much of a problem.. i can and have been strict with diet in the past.. as for workout- my trainer pushes me to the max. cardio has been very good lately- high intensity. I also brought up the discussion of thermogenics/supplements for this very reason. I prefer to do everything natural.. my assumption is that these women are on a load of supps.. which is very discouraging. Any advice??

most if not all of them would be on something...

once all traininga and nutritional avenues have been exhausted, then that's the best time to add in specicfic supp's

why not post your training and eating here and we can see if it can be improved?

As for my training:
I workout w/ a trainer 2-3 days/wk. However, they are only 30 min. session. But we train hard. I will usually pick up one more day of weights on my own depending on what muscle groups we've hit.
An example,

Monday: Back and Chest- typically we superset or dropset. Whichever the case, i always hit failure. Cardio (about 45-60min.)
Tuesday: Cardio: 30 in morning, 30 min in Evening
Wed: Legs: LOTS of squats- high reps, drop sets. Or we cycle a few diff. machines w/ no rest in-between. I''m pear shaped. so high reps work pretty well for me.
Always to failure. (cardio, 45-60 min.)
Thursday: Triceps/Biceps. Like before, supersets/dropsets. Heavy, to failure. Cardio, morning and evening, 30 min each.
Friday: Shoulders- high rep cardio- boxing with weights mixed with low rep and heavy. to failure. Cardio (30-60 min.)
Sat: CArdio: 45 min.
Sun: offf

This is simply an example. My workouts are planned around my work schedule. Im a nurse, 12 hours shifts 3 days/wk. Typically on my work days I will fit in 35-45 min of cardio around 7pm.

As for my diet- it has been the same for 2 wks now.

Meal 1: 1/2 grapefruit (wait 15 min); 5 egg whites, 1 whole egg; 1/2 cup dry oatmeal.
Meal 2: 1/4 cup walnuts; 1 scoop Protein powder (w/ H2O). Protein contains 120cals, 2 carbs (1 sugar), 24 gm protein.
Meal 3: 6 oz chicken breast; 1/2 cup steamed broccoli. There originally was 4oz yam to this meal, but i eliminated it for now- not sure if that was a good idea.
Meal 4: Same as meal 2
Meal 5: 6oz chicken breast or 6oz tuna w/ small salad. I dont use dressing. if so, Braggs amino (very light).

LOTS of H2O- no sodas. I do drink a cup of coffee every morning w/ a very small amount of fat free half and half (prob not the greatest thing).
Post workout meal: 1 tbslp of honey with 1 scoop protein powder- 1 1/2 hours after i consume my next solid meal.

That is it so far. Right now im not "training" for anything. Just discipline. But like i said, I have put a lot of thought into it recently.
Feel free to critique the above- Im very open to any suggestions you may have!
Also- in a little bit of a rush this morning- getting ready for work! Sorry if the detail was poor. I can always add more if need be.

Thanks!
Tara

here's my take:

training split - either full body 3/week or lower/upper 4/week...regardkless of the goal, these are the only 2 splits that you should be doing...they use more overall muscle per sesion, thus more calorie use OR muscle srtimulation for fat loss OR muscle gain...bodypart splits don't allow this...they do these as well as getting the dame volume in except that instead of doing day 12 sets on 1 day for legs, you'd 4 sets x 3/week but at a higher intensity (wt used)...win-win
- i don't really like drop sets or any of those intensifiers...a - once you start decreasing wt than your intensity has dropped...do not mistake fatigue for intensity, they are completely different...i'd go for intensity over fatigue everyday of the week...b - manage fatigue don't seek it meaning i hardly ever go to F...maybe 1 week out of every 4

cardio - here's fat loss in a nutshell...first fat needs to be mobilise from the fat cells (intense training)...once it is mobilise it will either be burnt or redopsited...so do a 3min warm up then do 3 cycles of intense intervals such as 2mins on/off, 30secs on/90secs off etc (mobilise)...it is now that the fat is "freed" from the fat cels and is now 'floating" around...at this time you will give the body time to draw as much fat it can out of the cells so you'll do a quick walking pace for 5mins...now that the fat cells have vbeen mobilised they must be used for energy or they will redopsit themselves back to fat so do another 20mins at about 60%, where fat is the preferred source of energy by the body...now the mobilised fat will be used = fat loss...steady state cardio doesn not do this...also 2 sessions a daty is overkill, you can only burn so may cal's in 1 day and then you're burning muscle no matter what cal intake you have

food - ony have proetin shakes after wts training...all other times have solid protein...if your gonna have sugary cereal, bread, pasta or rice, also have it here...your next solid meal should be about 30 - 45mins later

training - you need a goal...anything

i train a tara.....

If your Carbs after a workout are only the Honey, then you won't be helping to replenish Muscle Glycogen and increase Bloodsugar, only increase Bloodsugar. Honey is Simple Carb not Complex.

If your shake contains some Complex like Maltodextrin as an example, then fine, a bit of Honey is not a problem. Some people advocate a mix of Complex and Simple together, with Protein afer workouts, but if it's the only Carb Source, then you should consider changing your shakes to one with Complex Carbs added. Go for Complex over Simple, but if you want both together, that's okay, but not Simple on its own in my opinion.

If you don't use a Shake with Carbs, and chose one that had them, obviously I wouldn't advise mixing Honey into the shakes, (if you still wanted Honey), incase they tasted a bit blerrch , but obviously if you wanted to try that the once and see how you fair, you might find it's nice.

If you have a shake with something in like Palatinose or Glucomannan, then no need for honey, as they are are clever Simple complex coimbination, that to my understanding, give you the digestion time of a complex, but the uptake of a simple Carb, using a time release mechanism, a bit like Plugin-air fresheners, so you get little bursts of simple carb release that digest at the same rate, for the duration of the complex Carb digestion rate, so you're not in effect getting a massive shoot of simple all at once.

swans05 wrote:here's my take:

training split - either full body 3/week or lower/upper 4/week...regardkless of the goal, these are the only 2 splits that you should be doing...they use more overall muscle per sesion, thus more calorie use OR muscle srtimulation for fat loss OR muscle gain...bodypart splits don't allow this...they do these as well as getting the dame volume in except that instead of doing day 12 sets on 1 day for legs, you'd 4 sets x 3/week but at a higher intensity (wt used)...win-win
- i don't really like drop sets or any of those intensifiers...a - once you start decreasing wt than your intensity has dropped...do not mistake fatigue for intensity, they are completely different...i'd go for intensity over fatigue everyday of the week...b - manage fatigue don't seek it meaning i hardly ever go to F...maybe 1 week out of every 4

cardio - here's fat loss in a nutshell...first fat needs to be mobilise from the fat cells (intense training)...once it is mobilise it will either be burnt or redopsited...so do a 3min warm up then do 3 cycles of intense intervals such as 2mins on/off, 30secs on/90secs off etc (mobilise)...it is now that the fat is "freed" from the fat cels and is now 'floating" around...at this time you will give the body time to draw as much fat it can out of the cells so you'll do a quick walking pace for 5mins...now that the fat cells have vbeen mobilised they must be used for energy or they will redopsit themselves back to fat so do another 20mins at about 60%, where fat is the preferred source of energy by the body...now the mobilised fat will be used = fat loss...steady state cardio doesn not do this...also 2 sessions a daty is overkill, you can only burn so may cal's in 1 day and then you're burning muscle no matter what cal intake you have

food - ony have proetin shakes after wts training...all other times have solid protein...if your gonna have sugary cereal, bread, pasta or rice, also have it here...your next solid meal should be about 30 - 45mins later

training - you need a goal...anything

i train a tara.....

Full body 3x/week is definitely do-able.. how many sets per body part? As for intensity- do you advise staying in the lower (8-12) rep range? Seems like it would be a long workout session- but i do have time. and like you said, going back in the evening for cardio is something i do anyway.
I have also been doing high intensity cardio like you mentioned above- but now it actually makes much more sense.
The diet needs a little work. Im always trying to modify it- but never seem to find exactly what i need. afraid im going to low on carbs, too high w/protein, or not enough calories to compensate for my expenditure. I keep a daily log on calorie-count.com- keeps track of my intake (calories consumed) vs output (calories burned). Im usuall at a 500 calorie deficit.
All of this seems so simple but yet so extremely difficult. i wish it was as easy as it sounds!

You train a Tara?? She must be AWSOME! (j/k)
Thankyou for the advice- so very helpful

Boss wrote:If your Carbs after a workout are only the Honey, then you won't be helping to replenish Muscle Glycogen and increase Bloodsugar, only increase Bloodsugar. Honey is Simple Carb not Complex.

If your shake contains some Complex like Maltodextrin as an example, then fine, a bit of Honey is not a problem. Some people advocate a mix of Complex and Simple together, with Protein afer workouts, but if it's the only Carb Source, then you should consider changing your shakes to one with Complex Carbs added. Go for Complex over Simple, but if you want both together, that's okay, but not Simple on its own in my opinion.

If you don't use a Shake with Carbs, and chose one that had them, obviously I wouldn't advise mixing Honey into the shakes, (if you still wanted Hoeny), incase they tasted a bit blerrch , but obviously if you wanted to try that the once and see you fair, you might find it's nice.

If you have a shake with something in like Palatinose or Glucomannan, thne no need for hoeny, as they are are clever Simple complex coimbination, that to my understnading, give you the digestion time of a complex, but the uptake of a simple Carb, using a time release mechanism, a bit like Plugin-air fresheners, so you get little bursts of simple carb release that digest at the same rate, for the duration of the complex Carb digestion rate, so you're not in effect getting a massive shoot of simple all at once.

I remember reading a similar post you had responded to regarding post workout meals. What if i mixed my protein powder with 1/4-1/2 cup oatmeal and honey?? or do you have a better suggestion? Better yet- could you suggest a good quality protein powder?? I'm currently using 100% Whey by Optimum Nutrition.
Thanks!

- for full body workouts you train movements over muscles...search the waterbury method for an easy to follow plan
- strength is the base for all other fitness qualities so i would like to see some lower rep (3 - 6) work in each session
- workouts will be the same duration or shorter as you'll only use compound exercises that train many muscles at once
- don't go too low on carbs...it's more about timing with carbs anyway...you can 300g a day easily if you have them at breakfast and post workout
- she's about 6 weeks off doing sets of chin ups, she goes alright actually

Tbarone wrote:What if i mixed my protein powder with 1/4-1/2 cup oatmeal and honey?? or do you have a better suggestion? Better yet- could you suggest a good quality protein powder?? I'm currently using 100% Whey by Optimum Nutrition.
Thanks!

Can't reccomend a Protein powder as such, as there's many different makes and brands, although I use one by Nutrisport called Protein and Complex Carbs.

You could possibly try a site called Trueprotein, and get a customised mix. There is one called Myprotein which has a better choice, but they're British, and may well not ship, but you should be able to get a good, customised, cheap mix on Trueprotein, if you chose that avenue.

You could do what you're doing, but I'd say mix the Honey in with the Oatmeal, down the shake, then have the Carbs, and potentially give the body at least 5 minutes, to start working on the shake.

Then your body gets the shake first, (at the gym for example), then you can give it the Carbs after when you get home, (if you train then go home), and let the enzymes required to digest the Carbs, work in a way where there's less competition with Protein enzymes, because the Protein enzymes should have done a fair amount if not all of the shake processing, by the time the Carbs are getting worked on, so the Carb enzymes can do their thing more efficiently, without other Enzymes getting in the way as much.

Or at least that should be the case in my opinion.